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Generations Plead for a Home

Generations Plead for a Home

Laurie Wiltshire represented the Talmage family at an East Hampton Town Board hearing last Thursday.
Laurie Wiltshire represented the Talmage family at an East Hampton Town Board hearing last Thursday.
Morgan McGivern
By
Joanne Pilgrim

       Members of one of East Hampton’s founding families made emotional pleas last week to the town board, seeking to have the zoning changed and agricultural protections removed on their 19 acres of farmland so that it could be subdivided into more house lots than currently allowed.

       Eleventh and 12th-generation siblings and cousins in the Talmage family argued that two upzonings of the land located between Cedar Street and Long Lane, designed to protect the farmland, were based on an erroneous classification of the soils there as “prime,” and that the land is actually virtually unfarmable.

       Town officials had scheduled the hearing on a request to rezone the site, now in a five-acre residential zone with an agricultural overlay, to one-acre zoning, without the agricultural zone, but the family had changed its application just before the hearing to request three-acre zoning. The land is held in a limited partnership known as Diamond T.

       Four adult siblings, their mother, and their children invoked generations of community involvement and ties to the land, and a desire to provide younger members of the family, who have been priced out of East Hampton, with an ability to stay here.

       Stephanie Talmage Forsberg, an East Hampton Town trustee, described how her ancestors accepted 12 acres from the King of England and gave additional land to the trustees. “My family has continuously given back to the town,” she said.

       “I may soon have to face the hard reality that I may not be able to live here,” said Sarah Talmage, a college student and 12th-generation member of the family. “Our beaches may be some of the best in the nation, but our close-knit sense of community is that times 10,” she said.

       All three of his children “want to live here and build homes,” said Tom Talmage. “Please approve the zone change to help my family provide for themselves.”

       Kayla Talmage, who, like her cousin, served as a trustee, for two terms, said she moved four years ago to Hampton Bays, which was more affordable, and that her brother, sister, and their families also moved there recently. Returning to the family property, “to be able to build on it, would be the only way I could return to live in East Hampton,” she said.

       Under the current zoning, four house lots could be created, with 70 percent of the agricultural land set aside. The family’s original request, a change to one-acre zoning with no agricultural protection, would have allowed 16 house lots. Under three-acre zoning, it is estimated that six house lots would be allowed, with one designated for affordable housing. Seventy percent of the farmland would remain untouched, if the agricultural zone also remains, or 50 percent if it is removed.

       Previous zoning changes to the property in 1984 and 2005 and the establishment of the agricultural overlay zone were based on the land’s classification as prime agricultural soil.

       The town code, in its description of farm soil categories, references the United States Department of Agriculture’s soil classifications, but, Laurie Wiltshire, a land planner for the Talmages, said those classifications have been revised, and an error acknowledged.

       However, JoAnn Pahwul of the Town Planning Department said that regardless of how the U.S.D.A. now classifies the “Plymouth loamy sand” soil on the property, that soil type is considered prime soil under East Hampton Town Code. The type of soil on the Talmage land, according to the U.S.D.A., is still considered of “statewide significance,” she said.

       Those driving by need only look at the row of cedar trees planted at the property’s edge along Cedar Street, Jane Talmage, the family matriarch, said. “They are the sorriest-looking trees I have ever seen — and on Cedar Street, no less.”

       “Keeping 70 percent of the land after the discovery of a mistake is just stealing, in my opinion,” she said.

       “This is the perfect place to do something for our youth for the future,” she said. “One by one we are running them out of town.”

       Christopher Talmage, whose two children are 13th-generation Talmages, said he lives in Hampton Bays but commutes to the family driveway business, D.L. Talmage, on the homestead land. “The history and heritage of East Hampton Town has always been based on the people who live here and their commitment to the quality of life in the town,” he said. The zoning restrictions on the family land, he said, have “cost the family substantially” and are “breaking the roots to our family ties in the town.” 

       Debra Foster, a former town councilwoman who participated in crafting the comprehensive plan, also choked up, like many of the Talmages. “You’re not going to find a better family than the Talmages,” she said. “They’re the epitome of the kind of family that this town can be proud of.”

       But, she said, overall community goals were applied objectively in adopting the comprehensive plan and enacting agricultural and other zones. “You have to decide what your goals are. One of our goals was to preserve farmland.”

       A change to the way farm soils are categorized is of concern, Ms. Pahwul said, because it could set a precedent that could be applied to other farmland in the town, allowing increased development.

       Ms. Wiltshire said her own review of other parcels that could be affected by a change to the town code regarding soil designations resulted in a much smaller list. Even if the owners of all three sites that she determined could be recategorized also successfully made that request to the town, she said, the result would be a potential for 10 more new house lots, with one required to be earmarked for affordable housing.

       Ms. Wiltshire argued that the goals of the town comprehensive plan also include meeting the housing needs of current East Hampton residents and their family members.

       “You could end this thing by Dec. 31,” Ms. Wiltshire told the board. She suggested board members have the required environmental review completed by the Planning Department and vote for the zone change at a special meeting before the end of the year. “I would kindly ask you to do that,” she said.

       Because the County Planning Commission voted against the original zone change request, four out of five town board members would have to approve it to override that agency’s vote.

       “You have my vote,” said Town Supervisor Bill Wilkinson. Councilman Dominick Stanzione agreed. But Councilwoman Sylvia Overby and Councilman Peter Van Scoyoc, who will remain on the board next year, said it would be premature to make a decision without having the Town Planning Department and planning board, as well as the County Planning Commission, weigh in on the revised zone change request.

       “I think it’s really important that there be a process followed from start to finish, and it’s fair and it’s the same for everybody,” Mr. Van Scoyoc said.

       “I’m being pressured to make a vote on something without really having all the information, and that’s not really fair,” Mr. Van Scoyoc said.

       Ms. Overby said she could sympathize with the Talmage family members, but, she said, “the town expects a level playing field” regardless of how many generations a family has been in East Hampton.

       The hearing is being held open while comments are sought from the other agencies and an environmental assessment is done on the new three-acre zoning request.

Montauk Millionaire’s Row All Lined Up

Montauk Millionaire’s Row All Lined Up

By
T.E. McMorrow

      A site plan that would legalize expansions at two of Morgan Neff’s seven cottages on Fort Pond Bay in Montauk is among the applications scheduled for hearings at the East Hampton Town Planning Board’s first meeting of the year on Wednesday at 7 p.m.

       Another hearing on the site plan for Crystal Mews, the former Crystal Room property on Pantigo Road in East Hampton, where six units are proposed in two buildings, was noticed incorrectly and will have to be rescheduled. The board will also hear comments Wednesday on a new septic system and interior improvements to the Animal Rescue Fund property on Daniel’s Hole Road in East Hampton, and the Town Lane Estates subdivision in Amagansett, on the east end of that road.

       The Neff site plan is now over four years in the making, and has generated some controversy along the way. The modest cottages were once facetiously labeled Millionaire’s Row, a name that stuck. Built as fishermen’s shacks before the zoning code was written, they are now summer rentals that go for between $30,000 and $55,000 for an extended season. The site plan before the planning board is for two of the cottages that were expanded without a building permit, one called the Crowley, which was increased from 122 square feet to 289 square feet, and the other called the Sharkey, to which Mr. Neff added a 480-square-foot deck.

       Mr. Neff applied for site plan approval for the Crowley and the Sharkey early in 2013, but had to first go before the zoning board of appeals — the Sharkey because its deck was 121 feet from the beach where 150 feet is required, the Crowley because a crawl space under it is considered a cellar under town code and cellars are forbidden in that zone.

       The Sharkey received the variances it needed from that board. The Z.B.A. approved some of the variances Mr. Neff requested for the Crowley, but it specifically denied the request to keep the basement beneath the building. However, the Z.B.A. did give Mr. Neff an out, according to the memo prepared for the Planning Board on the proposal by JoAnne Pahwul, the town’s assistant planning director. Mr. Neff could, she wrote, “excavate the exterior grade along the east foundation wall.” This would, Ms. Pahwul said, change the cellar into a crawl space according to town code.

       Mr. Neff’s attorney, Richard Whalen, told the board at its Dec. 11 meeting that his client would agree to the excavation. But there remained one more sticking point: the board voted to require Mr. Neff to submit a revised drawing of the building to reflect the change to the east side grade.

       “I’ve waited 300 days. I still don’t have a C. of O.,” Mr. Neff said from the audience.

       Patrick Schutte told Mr. Neff that the board was doing its best to move the process along.

       Mr. Whalen presented the revised plans to the board later that week.

       As for the Crystal Mews, the hearing notice placed in The Star incorrectly included a description of the Animal Rescue Fund property. The Crystal Mews property has a rare zoning status that allows multiple units on one parcel. Mr. Whalen, who represents the owner, the estate of Albert Trages, explained that the approximately 1.5-acre property is one of only four in the town where multiple residences are permitted. The board has been supportive of the plan, but the public will have to wait a few more weeks, until the hearing can be properly noticed, to comment on it.

Living Wage Reset

Living Wage Reset

By
Star Staff

Suffolk’s 2014 living wage, which applies to all county contractors and subcontractors, as well as companies benefiting from tax subsidies, grants, and other county assistance, is $13.37 an hour. The hourly minimum wage for those who receive health benefits from their employer is $11.74.

This reflects a 1.9-percent increase in the Suffolk cost of living index, according to a statement from the County Department of Labor. Affected employers were required to notify their workers in writing and make appropriate adjustments as of yesterday. New York State’s minimum wage for 2014 is $8.

Tax Deadline Tomorrow

Tax Deadline Tomorrow

By
Joanne Pilgrim

       Tomorrow is the East Hampton Town deadline for payment of the first half of 2013-14 property taxes. The second half is due by May 31.

       Taxes may be paid at the office of the town tax receiver at 300 Pantigo Place in East Hampton or by phone or online using a credit card at officialpayments.com and the jurisdiction code 4216.

       Although it is unclear whether last year’s history is repeating itself — numerous residents never received their tax bills — several complaints have been received about missing bills this year. Town staffers were trying this week to determine if the problem went beyond the normal number of bills that are returned each year as undeliverable, due to address errors or the like.

       East Hampton’s budget officer, Len Bernard, said this week that, though property owners are required to pay taxes on time regardless of whether or not the town has issued a bill, in cases where the town tax assessors had failed to print out a property tax bill, town officials would ask the county, which assesses fees for late taxes, to waive those fees.

       Mr. Bernard said the tax bills were printed out and hand-delivered to a company hired by the town to process and prepare them for mailing. They were mailed from the East Hampton Post Office on Dec. 13.  Some tax bills, particularly those going to the owners of multiple properties  — about 4,000, Mr. Bernard said — were processed by the assessors office itself.

       The town must wait until the county adopts the tax warrant for all municipalities, at the first meeting of the Suffolk Legislature in December, before beginning to prepare East Hampton tax bills. After a lengthy process of checking to make sure the tax bills will equal the amount of the town’s tax warrant, the bills are printed out over the course of several days.

       Tomorrow is also the deadline to pay property taxes in Southampton Town. First-half taxes can be paid at the Office of the Tax Receiver at Town Hall at 116 Hampton Road in Southampton Village. Payments may also be made online at the town website, www.southamptontownny.gov.

Dump Fees Could Increase This Year

Dump Fees Could Increase This Year

By
Joanne Pilgrim

       Len Bernard, the East Hampton Town budget officer, presented the new town board at its very first work session on Tuesday with an issue that must be resolved quickly.

       The 2014 budget, adopted in November, relies for operation of the Sanitation Department on an increase in fees for use of the recycling and garbage transfer centers, and, he said, about $300,000 has to be raised to make the budget balance.

       The hikes outlined by Mr. Bernardwould see the cost of a household dump sticker rise from $100 to $115, and a secondary sticker, issued for a second car in the same household, go from $15 to $40. That fee has not been increased since 2008, Mr. Bernard told the board.

       Other proposed increases include a small hike in the cost of stickers for senior citizens, from $50 to $55. The cost of dropping off construction debris would go from $140 per ton to $150, and of dumping brush, from $100 to $115 a ton. 

       “I think the fee increases are reasonable, I think they’re balanced . . . I don’t think you’re going to find much objection from the public,” said Mr. Bernard.

       For vehicles without dump stickers, it now costs $10 for a single drop-off at the recycling center. Doubling the entry fee would generate over $100,000 in needed revenue, the budget officer said.

       The suggestion caused some concern among board members, however. “What I’m concerned about is what the additional cost is going to be for us to pick up the additional garbage that’s going to be left around town,” said Councilman Fred Overton.

       “It will be an additional burden on enforcement,” Councilman Peter Van Scoyoc predicted.

       “I think there’s an education process that’s going to need to come about, that we haven’t done in a while, about the recyclables,” said Councilwoman Sylvia Overby. The town makes money selling some recyclables, such as cardboard and plastics.

       “We’re going to have to launch a campaign increasing the rate of recycling in East Hampton . . .  because it’s good for the environment and it lowers our costs,” Supervisor Larry Cantwell said. “I think our recycling rate is low.”

       He also suggested the town reopen areas at the recycling centers where residents can drop off reusable items.

       Mr. Bernard said that in order to balance the sanitation budget without raising taxes — a key concern, especially under the state-imposed 2-percent cap on tax increases — some surplus monies had been allocated to Sanitation in 2012 and 2013. That practice is unsustainable, he advised. Fees must be increased to cover expenses, both for the sanitation budget and as a general practice.

       The board could address the “broader issues,” such as “litter and recycling and the operations of the Sanitation Department,” later, said Mr. Cantwell, but the recycling fees must be dealt with immediately, because this year’s “budget has anticipated an increase in revenue.” No decisions were made this week.

Swearing In Makes New Officials Official

Swearing In Makes New Officials Official

Larry Cantwell, East Hampton Town’s new supervisor, was all smiles while being sworn into office last Thursday by former Town Justice James R. Ketcham.
Larry Cantwell, East Hampton Town’s new supervisor, was all smiles while being sworn into office last Thursday by former Town Justice James R. Ketcham.
Morgan McGivern
By
Joanne Pilgrim

        It was standing room only at East Hampton Town Hall during swearing-in ceremonies for newly elected town officials last Thursday morning.

       With a quiet “Good morning,” prompting a round of applause, incoming Town Supervisor Larry Cantwell commanded the attention of the crowd, which filled the meeting room after a half-hour of coffee, Dreesen’s doughnuts, fruit, and chit-chat in the atrium.

       Mr. Cantwell introduced Barbara Borsack, his “lifelong friend” and former colleague in East Hampton Village, where he was longtime village administrator. Ms. Borsack, the village’s deputy mayor, led a chorus of “God Bless America.”

       Former East Hampton Town Justice James R. Ketcham rose to don his black robe — “to make it official,” he said — before swearing in the new supervisor.

       Steven Tekulsky, who would be sworn in a few minutes later as a new town justice by his friend, Alex Walter, stood in his brand-new judge’s robe, his hand on the shoulder of his elderly mother, seated in the front row wearing a wrist corsage.

       “You knew what to do right away,” Justice Ketcham teased Carole Brennan after her swearing-in as the new town clerk. As a longtime deputy town clerk, Ms. Brennan had participated in many similar official ceremonies.

       She did the honors for her former boss, Fred Overton, who eschewed an incumbent run for town clerk and instead sought, and won, a seat on the town board. “We’re switching sides,” she told Mr. Overton as the two stood at the front of Town Hall, Ms. Brennan with a face full of emotion and a huge grin.

       Kathee Burke-Gonzalez, also taking a seat on the town board, was sworn in by Town Justice Lisa R. Rana. Her husband, Joe Gonzalez, flashed her a smile and a big thumbs-up as she stepped to the side of the room following her oath.

       Ms. Rana then swore in the incumbent highway superintendent, Steve Lynch, and his deputy, Kevin Ahearn.

       “Now we’re going to swear in the new Carole,” Ms. Brennan said before doing the honors for Jeanne Hamilton, a three-decade Town Hall veteran, who replaces Ms. Brennan as the deputy town clerk.

Propose Beach Restoration

Propose Beach Restoration

Cate Rogers, second from left, returned to serve on the East Hampton Zoning Board of Appeals after a four-year absence. With her Tuesday at Town Hall were Don Cirillo, Alex Walter, David Lys, and Bryan Gosman, as they discussed a pending application with the Planning Department’s Brian Frank.
Cate Rogers, second from left, returned to serve on the East Hampton Zoning Board of Appeals after a four-year absence. With her Tuesday at Town Hall were Don Cirillo, Alex Walter, David Lys, and Bryan Gosman, as they discussed a pending application with the Planning Department’s Brian Frank.
T.E. McMorrow
Motel’s new owner wants more sand
By
T.E. McMorrow

       A public hearing by the East Hampton Town Zoning Board of Appeals on an application from the new owner of the East Deck Motel at Ditch Plain in Montauk to bring about 300 dump trucks of sand to the site was fast-tracked by unanimous consent on Tuesday night. It will be on Feb. 4.

       Brian Frank, the chief environmentalist of the Planning Department, told the board that the plan was to add 6,000 cubic yards of sand to the beach. Because no structural work is involved, he said the department would ordinarily recommend that the application be handled administratively. However, he said the scale of the project could be the subject of controversy, thus requiring a hearing.

       It was a point all board members agreed with, although no one disputed the need for beach restoration. The board was shown aerial photographs of the motel, which is on the eastern edge of what Mr. Frank called one of the town’s most popular beaches. He pointed out changes on the coastline since 2010.

       Don Cirillo told his fellow board members that to go the administrative route with something so ambitious might smack of “an end-run.” He was supported, among others, by Alex Walter, the board’s chairman, and Cate Rogers, the newest member, who was appointed by the East Hampton Town Board on Jan. 3.

       A Delaware limited liability corporation, ED40, is identified as having bought the East Deck’s 5.01 acres on lots 15 and 16 at 40 DeForest Road, from Montauk Agency and Jettie on Oct. 1 for $14.75 million. The corporation was represented at the hearing by Richard Hammer, a Montauk attorney.

       Mr. Hammer expressed concern that the hearing process could delay what he called essential work. “We don’t want to be going into June,” he said. Mr. Walter promised to add the hearing onto the public calendar as soon as a legal notice could be placed in The East Hampton Star.

       In other action Tuesday, the board held three public hearings on applications from two property owners. Two of the hearings were on two undeveloped parcels on the Three Mile Harbor shoreline, at 33 and 35 Springwood Way. Billy Hajek of Land Marks, a land planning firm, represented the owners, one of whom, Michael DeSario, was in the audience. The lots are each roughly an acre. Z.B.A. permits are needed because they contain wetlands, bluffs, and beachfront.

       The request had been on the administrative action list for the Planning Department to act without a public hearing, until a neighbor, Michael Federman, raised a concern about the scale of new houses, each about 5,300 square feet. But Mr. Hajek pointed out to the board that the plans were within town code guidelines. He said to deny the special permits needed would be “arbitrary.” The board has 62 days to make a decision.

       The most heated exchange of the evening came during the final hearing, for a proposed two-car garage on a small lot at Pine Way and Central Avenue in Amagansett. Seth and Sherry Leist want to put up the garage on their 13,000-square-foot lot. A similar application, for a 456-square-foot structure, was turned down by the board in June of 2012. The newly proposed garage is somewhat bigger, at 480 square feet, and it has been repositioned.

       The Leists were represented by Richard Whalen, also of Land Marks. He said the couple needed a garage to protect their cars from the salt air and potential accidents and vandalism if parked in the street.

       The garage would need an eight-foot variance to be within 92 feet of wetlands when 100 feet is required and another variance to be placed less than the required 30 feet from both Pine Way and Central Avenue. The problem, in the opinion of the Planning Department, again represented by Mr. Frank, is that there are already many structures on the small lot — a house, a shed, a pool house, and a pool patio, all of which are closer to the wetlands than the town code allows.

       But Mr. Whalen referred to neighboring houses, which were even closer to the wetlands. “The wildlife is not going to know our garage exists,” he said.

       Mr. Frank reminded the board of its reasoning in declining the requested garage last year. “The board originally found that the variances requested were substantial and self-created.”

       Mr. Frank and Mr. Whalen called the facts each had presented “irrelevant.” The board has 62 days to decide which facts matter.

       Mr. Walter also announced a reshuffling of responsibilities for board members, who are each designated to take the lead on applications for their assigned hamlet. Lee White, whose five-year term expired at the end of the year, had been responsible for Amagansett. David Lys will take on that territory and his former responsibility, Springs, now goes to Ms. Rogers. Mr. Cirillo will be responsible for East Hampton, Mr. Walter, Wainscott, and Bryan Gosman, Montauk.

Government Briefs 01.16.14

Government Briefs 01.16.14

By
Star Staff

East Hampton Town

Affordable Housing Committee

       An East Hampton Community Housing Opportunity Fund committee is to be formed, comprising seven residents who will discuss ideas for the establishment of affordable housing — an item on the new East Hampton Town Board’s agenda.

       An advisory committee to oversee use of the fund — which, Councilwoman Sylvia Overby reported Tuesday, has some money remaining, but “not enough to complete a project” — is required under the town code but had not been empaneled for five or six years. Ms. Overby asked fellow board members for nominees, and interested members of the public were asked to call Town Hall.

 

Town Offices to Recycle

       After a town board discussion about working to increase the rate of recycling throughout the town, Supervisor Larry Cantwell issued a directive last week calling on all town offices to recycle paper products. In a release, he noted a lack of recycling bins at Town Hall.

       “If we ask our residents to increase their recycling efforts, the town must do so, as well,” Mr. Cantwell said in the release. The recycling will help accomplish two goals, he said: protecting the environment and reducing the town’s garbage-disposal expense.

 

Solar Energy in Sight

       A request for proposals from companies interested in setting up solar energy systems at various town properties yielded 13 inquiries, Councilwoman Sylvia Overby reported this week. The town’s energy sustainability committee is vetting the responses.

       Under a program sponsored by the Long Island Power Authority, the energy generated would be fed into the power grid, reducing the need for power generated elsewhere. Once approved by the town, the proposals must be sent by the end of this month to LIPA for final approval.

       Supervisor Larry Cantwell pointed out an opportunity for “multiple wins” for East Hamptoners — in generating and selling solar power as well as in gaining revenue from leasing town property for “substantial sums.”

       J.P.

 

Federal

Bishop Speaks on Washington

       Representative Tim Bishop will present a “Washington update” on Wednesday at 6:30 p.m. at the Rogers Memorial Library in Southampton. The library has asked that those attending sign up in advance at myrml.org or by phone to assure a seat.

       Mr. Bishop, a six-term Democrat, is seeking re-election in November. He is expected to face New York State Senator Lee Zeldin, whom he defeated in 2008.

Solar Is Pitched for Lots

Solar Is Pitched for Lots

By
Stephen J. Kotz

       If all goes according to plan, solar panels could be cropping up next year on a number of vacant parcels owned by East Hampton Town.

       On Tuesday, the town board, acting at the request of Councilman Dominick Stanzione, agreed to seek bids from solar contractors to lease as many as 14  town-owned parcels, from Wainscott to Montauk. Mr. Stanzione said the project was the first step toward realizing a far-reaching objective adopted last summer by the town’s energy sustainability advisory committee, to which he is the liaison.

       The goal is to reduce the town’s energy consumption by 20 percent over the next decade. Leasees would pay the town an annual fee and make a profit by selling the electricity generated back to the Long Island Power Authority. 

       The program is being offered in conjunction with LIPA, which wants to expand solar power production on the island by 100 megawatts in the coming years through its Clean Solar Initiative, Mr. Stanzione said. LIPA has targeted the five eastern towns for up to 40 megawatts, with individual projects limited to 3-megawatt solar arrays.

HARBOR HEIGHTS: Decision Coming in January

HARBOR HEIGHTS: Decision Coming in January

By
Stephen J. Kotz

       The Sag Harbor Village Zoning Board of Appeals, which has spent the better part of the past three years reviewing an application to expand the Harbor Heights gas station on Route 114, announced at a work session on Monday that it needs a little more time before making a decision.

       After a 90-minute review of the plan, which seeks variances for the reconstruction of the existing building there into a 718-square-foot convenience store, the addition of gas pumps, and landscaping along neighboring property lines, the board agreed to schedule another work session, tentatively set for Jan. 10 at 2 p.m., at which it expects to hammer out a decision. It is to be formally adopted at the board’s Jan. 21 meeting.

       “It’s difficult because there so many weird, esoteric considerations,” the board’s chairman, Anthony Hagen, said yesterday. “We have had so much material thrown at us, some of which is not relevant.”

       Over the years, the project, proposed by the property’s owner, John Leonard, has been scaled back considerably. It now requires only three variances, but opposition has remained fierce, with neighbors and other Sag Harbor residents arguing that the expansion would over-commercialize a residential neighborhood and mar a gateway to the village.

       Mr.  Hagen said the Z.B.A. had yet to take a straw vote on whether it will come down in favor of or against the application, or somewhere down the middle. “We’re still jelling,” he said.